thanks chris! I did not like that cake enough to use it my butter cream roses werent good enough for my standards and that cake was more for trying out the lace for the first time. Its hard because I did it for a long time and then started doing hair. Now im back to cakes again but Im alone not in a bakery where i can bounce ideas off of other decorators. and get advise like im use to. But on the bright side of this post I did finnish my cake! and It up in the CD contest now! Yay! thanks o both of you for coming to chat with me about this.